Description

Christopher Perrin welcomes author and speaker Heidi White to discuss her book The Divided Soul and the inner conflict so many people experience between duty and desire. Along the way, Perrin draws on his own work, The Good Teacher, to frame how educators can unite discipline and delight as they form students’ loves. White traces her path from homeschooling into classical education, then explains how a single remark from Andrew Kern—about the Prodigal Son—sparked a long meditation on the “two brothers” within the human heart. From Genesis to Augustine, and from Dante to Homer, they explore how disordered desire can lead either to indulgence (the prodigal) or to self-righteous suppression (the older brother). Perrin and White rehabilitate the language of desire—eros, longing, even the “stars” behind the word desire—as a force meant for joy and union when properly ordered. The conversation turns practical as White describes classroom habits, “much, not many,” and Socratic discussion as ways to unite discipline and delight in student learning. The episode closes with where to find White’s work, including The Divided Soul, her Substack, and The Close Reads community.

Episode Outline

• Heidi White’s journey: homeschooling, recovering her own education, and entering the classical renewal
• The Divided Soul: how the Prodigal Son becomes a template for understanding interior conflict
• Genesis and the Fall: how desire and duty fracture, and why the rupture shapes every human dilemma
• Rehabilitating desire: eros, “chaste eros,” fasting and feasting, and longing for heaven
• Augustine and the divided will: why we do what we hate and resist what we love
• Teaching implications: habits, formation, music practice, and the slow education of desire
• Classroom practice: reading “much, not many,” annotation, handwriting, and Socratic discussion
• Great books as living feasts: why students return to Austen, Dante, Homer, and others across a lifetime

Key Topics & Takeaways

• History restores identity: A people who lose their story lose a clear sense of who they are—and what they owe to the dead and the unborn.
• The “two brothers” within us: White argues that the prodigal’s appetite and the older brother’s resentment both live in the same soul—and healing requires reconciliation, not victory by one side.
• The Fall fractures what paradise joined: In Eden, duty and desire were aligned; sin introduces a traumatic division that echoes through every choice, habit, and temptation.
• Desire needs rehabilitation, not elimination: Desire is not “for” self-indulgence or suppression, but for joy—ultimately a longing for union with God that remains incomplete this side of eternity.
• Fasting is a pedagogy of desire: Self-denial isn’t contempt for pleasure; it’s training appetite toward a higher good—because “the purpose of the fast is the feast.”
• Great teaching makes room for gift: Dutiful habits (reading, writing, practice) create conditions where wonder can “break in” unexpectedly through truth, goodness, and beauty.
• “Much, not many” restores attention: Classical pedagogy resists “covering content” and instead invites slow, meaningful encounters that students can return to for decades.
• Love is the bridge between duty and desire: The teacher’s “office” (officium) is fulfilled in benevolent love—guiding the student into communion with the artifact and the joy it holds.

Questions & Discussion

• Where do you see the “two brothers” in yourself: indulgence or self-righteous suppression?
  Identify one area where you chase satisfaction “on your own terms” and one area where you deny desire through resentment or control. What would reconciliation look like—practically—in the next week?
• How does the Prodigal Son illuminate your relationships (family, faculty, friendships)?
  Where do you see the temptation to label others as “that son of yours” rather than “this brother of yours”? What practices might restore relationship instead of reinforcing distance?
• What is desire for in your community’s imagination?
  Compare two instincts: “fulfill every appetite” vs. “want nothing.” Which dominates your environment?How could you articulate desire as ordered toward joy, union, and holiness? How can teachers unite rigor and joy in a classroom? 
• How can teachers unite rigor and joy in a classroom?
  Identify one duty you want to strengthen (annotation, narration, memorization, problem sets). Pair it with one practice of delight (Socratic discussion, shared reading, seminar questions that touch real student longings).

Suggested Reading & Resources

• The Divided Soul by Heidi White
• The Good Teacher  by Christopher Perrin PhD and Carrie Eben MSeD
• Norms and Nobility by David Hicks
• St. Augustine’s Confessions by St. Augustine 
• The Odyssey by Homer 
• The Prodigal Son – Luke 15 
• The CiRCE Institute
• Classical Academic Press
• Close Reads Community 
• Heidi White’s Substack
• Christopher Perrin’s Substack